On Nov 30, 6:43*pm, Scott W wrote:
On Nov 30, 6:33*pm, "Col" wrote:





"Eskimo Will" wrote in message

...

"Col" wrote in message
...

"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including mine - PROSPECTwww.prospect.org.uk. Many met Office
colleagues were with us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension
settlement, not a government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office
for over 30 years.

No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.

It's not a race to the bottom Col.
Pay where I work has always been below median of comparable private sector
which we have accepted given the good pensions to make up the shortfall.
Now the government want to impose another real terms pay cut over and
above the pay freeze *and* cut our pension too as well as asking us to pay
more and work longer. My union and other unions can try and do something
about it and we are and will. I'm sorry that you are not in the same
position but that doesn't mean that we should be clobbered unfairly as
well if we can do something about it.

Unfortunately it's 'fair' that everybody is clobbered. Cuts need to be made
*and you can't argue with demographics. We are living longer and one
way or another, that has to be paid for.
--
Col

Bolton, Lancashire
160m asl

Excuse me but what planet on you on? People who live in a democracy
have the right the strike. It is only right that those workers should
get the pensions that they signed up for, some of them many years ago.
BTW I work in the private sector and would also take action if my
employer suddenly turned around and withdrew the pension I was
promised when I signed up for the job...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Join the real world .

Col wrote:
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
"Col" wrote in message
...
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office
colleagues were with us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension
settlement, not a government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office
for over 30 years.

No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.
It's not a race to the bottom Col.

Pay where I work has always been below median of comparable private sector
which we have accepted given the good pensions to make up the shortfall.
Now the government want to impose another real terms pay cut over and
above the pay freeze *and* cut our pension too as well as asking us to pay
more and work longer. My union and other unions can try and do something
about it and we are and will. I'm sorry that you are not in the same
position but that doesn't mean that we should be clobbered unfairly as
well if we can do something about it.

Unfortunately it's 'fair' that everybody is clobbered. Cuts need to be made
and you can't argue with demographics. We are living longer and one
way or another, that has to be paid for.
-------------------+
How many people do you know in the private sector who've paid 6% of
their salary into a pension scheme like I did for nearly 40 years? Not
many I can assure you. No performance bonuses, PAYE, no overtime, no
expenses and a salary well below the equivalent in the private sector
during that period. The builder opposite moans about my pension. He
started his in a private pension at age 50, has a big 5 bedroom house
against my 3 bedroom semi, 3 holidays a year, does cash jobs, has an
accountant to reduce his real tax burden and drives a Porsche. I don't
begrudge myself the benefit of a £21k a year pension after doing a job
that the public the needed desperately and helps me from relying State
support in my old age! That's why I support Will and his ilk.
Dave

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:47:06 +0000, Dave Cornwell
wrote:

Col wrote:
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
"Col" wrote in message
...
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office
colleagues were with us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension
settlement, not a government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office
for over 30 years.

No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.
It's not a race to the bottom Col.

Pay where I work has always been below median of comparable private sector
which we have accepted given the good pensions to make up the shortfall.
Now the government want to impose another real terms pay cut over and
above the pay freeze *and* cut our pension too as well as asking us to pay
more and work longer. My union and other unions can try and do something
about it and we are and will. I'm sorry that you are not in the same
position but that doesn't mean that we should be clobbered unfairly as
well if we can do something about it.

Unfortunately it's 'fair' that everybody is clobbered. Cuts need to be made
and you can't argue with demographics. We are living longer and one
way or another, that has to be paid for.
-------------------+
How many people do you know in the private sector who've paid 6% of
their salary into a pension scheme like I did for nearly 40 years? Not
many I can assure you. No performance bonuses, PAYE, no overtime, no
expenses and a salary well below the equivalent in the private sector
during that period. The builder opposite moans about my pension. He
started his in a private pension at age 50, has a big 5 bedroom house
against my 3 bedroom semi, 3 holidays a year, does cash jobs, has an
accountant to reduce his real tax burden and drives a Porsche. I don't
begrudge myself the benefit of a £21k a year pension after doing a job
that the public the needed desperately and helps me from relying State
support in my old age! That's why I support Will and his ilk.
Dave

I was trying to keep out of the fray but nicely put Dave ...

I also know people in the private sector who had their pensions raided
but you have to blame the company directors and the government
(Conservative I believe) for allowing pension pots to be plundered or
at best to go on pension contribution holidays ...

"Dave Cornwell" wrote in message
...

Col wrote:
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
"Col" wrote in message
...
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office
colleagues were with us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension
settlement, not a government imposed one. First strike in the Met
Office for over 30 years.

No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.
It's not a race to the bottom Col.

Pay where I work has always been below median of comparable private
sector which we have accepted given the good pensions to make up the
shortfall. Now the government want to impose another real terms pay cut
over and above the pay freeze *and* cut our pension too as well as asking
us to pay more and work longer. My union and other unions can try and do
something about it and we are and will. I'm sorry that you are not in the
same position but that doesn't mean that we should be clobbered unfairly
as well if we can do something about it.

Unfortunately it's 'fair' that everybody is clobbered. Cuts need to be
made
and you can't argue with demographics. We are living longer and one
way or another, that has to be paid for.
-------------------+
How many people do you know in the private sector who've paid 6% of
their salary into a pension scheme like I did for nearly 40 years? Not
many I can assure you. No performance bonuses, PAYE, no overtime, no
expenses and a salary well below the equivalent in the private sector
during that period. The builder opposite moans about my pension. He
started his in a private pension at age 50, has a big 5 bedroom house
against my 3 bedroom semi, 3 holidays a year, does cash jobs, has an
accountant to reduce his real tax burden and drives a Porsche. I don't
begrudge myself the benefit of a £21k a year pension after doing a job
that the public the needed desperately and helps me from relying State
support in my old age! That's why I support Will and his ilk.
Dave

====================

£600 a month.... from the age of 21.... for 40 years. That may get you a
£21K pension these days - if that's 6% then a 21 year old would need a GOOD
job!

On Nov 30, 6:47*pm, Dave Cornwell wrote:
Col wrote:
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
"Col" wrote in message
.. .
"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including mine - PROSPECTwww.prospect.org.uk. Many met Office
colleagues were with us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension
settlement, not a government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office
for over 30 years.

No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.
It's not a race to the bottom Col.

Pay where I work has always been below median of comparable private sector
which we have accepted given the good pensions to make up the shortfall.
Now the government want to impose another real terms pay cut over and
above the pay freeze *and* cut our pension too as well as asking us to pay
more and work longer. My union and other unions can try and do something
about it and we are and will. I'm sorry that you are not in the same
position but that doesn't mean that we should be clobbered unfairly as
well if we can do something about it.

Unfortunately it's 'fair' that everybody is clobbered. Cuts need to be made
*and you can't argue with demographics. We are living longer and one
way or another, that has to be paid for.

-------------------+
How many people do you know in the private sector who've paid 6% of
their salary into a pension scheme like I did for nearly 40 years? Not
many I can assure you. No performance bonuses, PAYE, no overtime, no
expenses and a salary well below the equivalent in the private sector
during that period. The builder opposite moans about my pension. He
started his in a private pension at age 50, has a big 5 bedroom house
against my 3 bedroom semi, 3 holidays a year, does cash jobs, has an
accountant to reduce his real tax burden and drives a Porsche. I don't
begrudge myself the benefit of a £21k a year pension after doing a job
that the public the needed desperately and helps me from relying State
support in my old age! That's why I support Will and his ilk.
Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right on Dave I've made that same point elswhere.

On 30/11/11 18:01, Col wrote:
"Eskimo wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union folk
and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented including
mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office colleagues were with
us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension settlement, not a
government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office for over 30 years.


No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.

I return to my argument that Public Servants should have had an openly
contributory scheme so that the payments we made were visible to the
general public.

I started with payments of 1.5% of my salary. In the last few years, I
chose a system that bore 3% costs. Sounds cheap, doesn't it. What is
hidden is that, during Civil Service Pay Reviews, our pay was compared
with outside industry. About halfway through my working life, this meant
our salaries were adjusted downwards by 7% compared with outside
workers. This means my contributions then were 8.5%. By the end of my
working life, I understand the mark-down figure was 10% which suggests
my final contributions were around 13%.

But wait a minute, I haven't finished yet. Those salary comparisons were
with like jobs in the Private Sector. As I was in the Scientific Civil
Service, our pay was compared with that of scientists in the Private
Sector. Just one snag with that - pay in the Private Sector for
scientists was based on what the government paid its scientists! So,
every time there was a pay comparison, almost all scientists marked time
for a year.

When I had been working for three or four years and had had a promotion,
I found I was still earning less than the tea-boy/floor-sweeper in a
local factory. Never mind, I thought, at least I've got a good pension
to look forward to. Luckily, I've now got that but please don't try to
tell me that I've had it too good!

Also, don't blame Public Servants for the fact that Private Sector
bosses did a Maxwell with your pension funds when the Stock Market was
booming.

--
Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. E-mail: change boy to man
Teach evolution, not creationism: http://evolutionnotcreationism.org.uk/

Graham P Davis wrote:
On 30/11/11 18:01, Col wrote:
"Eskimo wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union
folk
and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented
including
mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office colleagues were
with
us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension settlement, not a
government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office for over 30
years.


No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.

I return to my argument that Public Servants should have had an openly
contributory scheme so that the payments we made were visible to the
general public.

I started with payments of 1.5% of my salary. In the last few years, I
chose a system that bore 3% costs. Sounds cheap, doesn't it. What is
hidden is that, during Civil Service Pay Reviews, our pay was compared
with outside industry. About halfway through my working life, this meant
our salaries were adjusted downwards by 7% compared with outside
workers. This means my contributions then were 8.5%. By the end of my
working life, I understand the mark-down figure was 10% which suggests
my final contributions were around 13%.

But wait a minute, I haven't finished yet. Those salary comparisons were
with like jobs in the Private Sector. As I was in the Scientific Civil
Service, our pay was compared with that of scientists in the Private
Sector. Just one snag with that - pay in the Private Sector for
scientists was based on what the government paid its scientists! So,
every time there was a pay comparison, almost all scientists marked time
for a year.

When I had been working for three or four years and had had a promotion,
I found I was still earning less than the tea-boy/floor-sweeper in a
local factory. Never mind, I thought, at least I've got a good pension
to look forward to. Luckily, I've now got that but please don't try to
tell me that I've had it too good!

Also, don't blame Public Servants for the fact that Private Sector
bosses did a Maxwell with your pension funds when the Stock Market was
booming.

------------
Exactly!

In message , Col
writes

"Eskimo Will" wrote in message
...
Perfect weather for a strike and for picket line duty!
Sun, and temperature around 10C.

Great turnout at Exeter City Centre rally with just under 4000 union folk
and families/supporters on the rally with all unions represented including
mine - PROSPECT www.prospect.org.uk . Many met Office colleagues were with
us too fighting for a fair *negotiated* pension settlement, not a
government imposed one. First strike in the Met Office for over 30 years.


No sympathy whatsoever.
The public sector have had it too good for too long with regards
to pensions. And even the offer on the table at the moment is
far better than the deals most private sector employees get. My
pension terms were reduced some years ago, I've had one
(small) pay rise in three years and there is the constant threat of
redundancy.

So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.


Instead of willingly participating in the race to the bottom, why not
try and better the position of everybody ?

Had you down as better than that. Still the right is very clever at
fooling the lower classes, and that's what it's about a class war. Snag
is it hasn't dawned on the average Joe. It will one day but by then
it'll be far too late.
--

Jim Kewley

"Jim Kewley" wrote in message
...
In message , Col


So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.


Instead of willingly participating in the race to the bottom, why not try
and better the position of everybody ?

In an ideal world that would be great. But there is no money
and we can't afford it. It's not right that one group of people
have pensions far better than everybody else, and more importantly
those pensions being funded by the taxpayer.
And they will*still* be better than private sector pensions, just not
quite as generous as they once were, yet public sector workers think
they should have a god-given right to have more than everynody else.

Had you down as better than that. Still the right is very clever at
fooling the lower classes, and that's what it's about a class war. Snag
is it hasn't dawned on the average Joe. It will one day but by then it'll
be far too late.

Class war??
Good grief, that sounds like some ant-Thatcher rhetoric from the 1980s.
Are the miners still on strike or something?

Oh and one other thing, please don't question my general integrity
when we just happen to disagree on what is essentially a political point.
--
Col

Bolton, Lancashire
160m asl

In message , Col
writes

"Jim Kewley" wrote in message
...
In message , Col


So basically, be thankful for what you've got.
There are millions of workers in a far worse position than those in
the public sector.


Instead of willingly participating in the race to the bottom, why not try
and better the position of everybody ?

In an ideal world that would be great. But there is no money
and we can't afford it. It's not right that one group of people
have pensions far better than everybody else, and more importantly
those pensions being funded by the taxpayer.
And they will*still* be better than private sector pensions, just not
quite as generous as they once were, yet public sector workers think
they should have a god-given right to have more than everynody else.

Had you down as better than that. Still the right is very clever at
fooling the lower classes, and that's what it's about a class war. Snag
is it hasn't dawned on the average Joe. It will one day but by then it'll
be far too late.

Class war??
Good grief, that sounds like some ant-Thatcher rhetoric from the 1980s.
Are the miners still on strike or something?

Oh and one other thing, please don't question my general integrity
when we just happen to disagree on what is essentially a political point.

That's very true we do and to put a Jeremy Clarkson spin on it, which
I'm sure you won't mind.

You are wrong I am right, you and your ilk, the Daily Mail/Telegraph
reading wozzocks are dragging the rest of us into your blind and bizarre
anxiety to race to the bottom. Are you all masochists or just plain
stupid ? There is plenty of cash about, the UK isn't broke, the snag is
it's all been neatly whizzed into the pockets of a rich and powerful
minority.

Think about this, if you can, after the second world war the country was
in a far, far worse financial condition than it is now, yet a Welfare
State was very much affordable. Why after many years of growth and
profits, is it suddenly too expensive now ? Because then the rich were
fearful of a revolution, there'd been two appalling wars in a short
space of time and the plebs had started asking questions. It was only
after Churchill and his dreadful Tories, they never change, got kicked
into touch that the rich became really worried. Bingo enter the Welfare
State, if Churchill had been elected it would have been back to the 30s
all over again, with the underclass put back in their place quickly.
It's taken the Tories 60 odd years to recover the ground they lost after
WW2 but they've finally achieved it, social democracy as many of us have
been fortunate enough to experience is dead in the UK.. Top marks to the
Tories they truly are the most devious and intelligent political party,
sticks in my throat to say that as I hate Tories with a passion,
nonetheless credit where credit is due.

Don't know how old you are Col but I'm old enough to have had parents
who lived through the squalor and deprivation of the 20s and 30s, they
were only too pleased to see the back of the Tories after WW2. They'd
experienced the agony of worrying how they could pay the doctor for
treatment, or what would happen if unemployment struck. Unemployment was
never far away as employers enjoyed the ' freedom ' of hire and fire and
a 'flexible' workforce. Something that the Tories, true to type, are
keen to reinstate, which they will, mark my words hope you don't suffer
as a result.

Private pensions are undoubtedly bad these days, nobody ever asks why ?
Instead they insist that public sector workers should fall to the same
meagre level. Why are private sector pensions bad ? The answer lies in
the so called Thatcher revolution, which was basically a con trick on
the public by greedy ****s, what about the pension contribution
'holidays' firm were allowed to take, or the 'consolidation' of company
pension funds. We all get old and need an income to exist during our
fading years. Without pensions what will happen to the old ? The Tories
are hell bent on destroying social security so the elderly won't have
that to fall back on, damn I forgot were going back to Edwardian times
so there'll be the parish or the work house. Or just die, that's the
ultimate cost saving.

I'll say no more on the subject with you as you are obviously the
unfortunate end product of years of Tory neo-liberal indoctrination. I
hope your future is better than the future you, and far too many others
seem hell bent on creating. Unless of course Col you are one of the 1%
then you're laughing.

Rant over but no apology.

--

Jim Kewley