SNIP

Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--

Nothing wrong with a bit of constructive criticism (a better term than
'sniping'!) provided it is justified, as Philip's almost always was. Until
relatively recently, no-one in the private sector was respected in the Met
Office. Times have changed.


I've a lot more respect for Philip Eden than the MetO (as an organisation
with their "Who needs people or actual observations when you have so much
computing power" attitude.) It was such a different and much more
approachable organisation back in the 20th century, often helpful even. I
even had people pop around to drop in satellite imagery in those pre
broadband days. That's not to say there aren't good people still working in
the MetO, but they are disappearing by the day.

Philip supplied me with so much historical data, as well as equipment &
friendship.

Graham
Penzance

I agree. Philip has always been very generous with his knowledge. Over the
years he must have spent hundreds of hours generating information for
'enthusiasts', all at no charge.


--
Norman Lynagh
Tideswell, Derbyshire
303m a.s.l.
http://peakdistrictweather.org
@TideswellWeathr

On 05/12/2016 10:23, Graham Easterling wrote:
The forecasters have been going on about cold, lack of stormy weather and the like for an age now.

But it hasn't been that cold has it? I mean, there's been some cold nights, notably in the Somerset levels & Thames valley, but overall http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/anomt.jpg more places have been mild of late.

I saw a recent video clip where John Hammond went on about the lack of storminess compared with last year. True, if you live in much of Scotland, NW England or N Wales, so it was unfortunate that he showed a picture of a stormy Penzance prom. Not sure when it was taken, but certainly not last November as was implied, when the stongest gust here was just 44mph and there were only 2 days with onshore winds. In fact pointing to an example from SW England was a bad call as Nov 2016 has been a wetter than 2015 across much of the southern half of England. In the SW whilst nothing much happened in November last year, the railway line was washed away in several places this year. He should have pointed to somewhere 'up north'.

Anyway, back to the cold - or rather lack of it.
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically perspective when you need them?

I think part of the issue is people now spend so much time gazing into model forecasts, supported by a stream of MetO 'it's going to a cold, cold winter' clips, that actual observations fall into 2nd place. I won't go into a rant about the MetO lack of interest in observations, but if you ask me . . .

Graham
Penzance


November has been a chilly month in Surrey and Sussex, with frequent
frosts, temperatures down to mid-low single digits and overnight
temperatures down to -6C last week. It has also been a benign and fairly
sunny month, with frequent anticyclonic influence. I would say that in
my location, November 2016 felt more like an average January in terms of
temperature. The CET and observations on the UKWeatherworld forum
support my claim that November was colder than normal in many places in
the UK.

Uasing a month like December 2010 as a benchmark for cold in the UK is
ridiculous. That month has something like a 100 year return level for
temperature, and was one of very few months in the last 100 years to
have a negative CET value. You wouldn't write off every winter storm
that affects southern England and caused damage and disruption and
didn't exceed the October 1987 storm wind speeds just because it is more
frequent in the Shetland islands. What next, are we going to say a
summer day is not hot unless it compares to the 36-38C temperatures
experienced last July, July 2006 and August 2003?

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 10:23:45 AM UTC, Graham Easterling wrote:
The forecasters have been going on about cold, lack of stormy weather and the like for an age now.

But it hasn't been that cold has it? I mean, there's been some cold nights, notably in the Somerset levels & Thames valley, but overall http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/anomt.jpg more places have been mild of late.

I saw a recent video clip where John Hammond went on about the lack of storminess compared with last year. True, if you live in much of Scotland, NW England or N Wales, so it was unfortunate that he showed a picture of a stormy Penzance prom. Not sure when it was taken, but certainly not last November as was implied, when the stongest gust here was just 44mph and there were only 2 days with onshore winds. In fact pointing to an example from SW England was a bad call as Nov 2016 has been a wetter than 2015 across much of the southern half of England. In the SW whilst nothing much happened in November last year, the railway line was washed away in several places this year. He should have pointed to somewhere 'up north'.

Anyway, back to the cold - or rather lack of it.
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically perspective when you need them?

I think part of the issue is people now spend so much time gazing into model forecasts, supported by a stream of MetO 'it's going to a cold, cold winter' clips, that actual observations fall into 2nd place. I won't go into a rant about the MetO lack of interest in observations, but if you ask me . . .

Graham
Penzance



On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 10:23:45 AM UTC, Graham Easterling wrote:
The forecasters have been going on about cold, lack of stormy weather and the like for an age now.

But it hasn't been that cold has it? I mean, there's been some cold nights, notably in the Somerset levels & Thames valley, but overall http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/anomt.jpg more places have been mild of late.

I saw a recent video clip where John Hammond went on about the lack of storminess compared with last year. True, if you live in much of Scotland, NW England or N Wales, so it was unfortunate that he showed a picture of a stormy Penzance prom. Not sure when it was taken, but certainly not last November as was implied, when the stongest gust here was just 44mph and there were only 2 days with onshore winds. In fact pointing to an example from SW England was a bad call as Nov 2016 has been a wetter than 2015 across much of the southern half of England. In the SW whilst nothing much happened in November last year, the railway line was washed away in several places this year. He should have pointed to somewhere 'up north'.

Anyway, back to the cold - or rather lack of it.
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically perspective when you need them?

I think part of the issue is people now spend so much time gazing into model forecasts, supported by a stream of MetO 'it's going to a cold, cold winter' clips, that actual observations fall into 2nd place. I won't go into a rant about the MetO lack of interest in observations, but if you ask me . . .


I think the problem is that the media often only remember last year when they put perspective on anything - December 2010 to them might as well be ancient history. And, compared with 2015, the mean temperature here this past week has, at times, been up to 11C colder!

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:16:03 PM UTC, Graham Easterling wrote:
SNIP
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically
perspective when you need them?

..................................................

Well it was a cold month up here on Dartmoor (also in the SW). Hard frozen
ground on quite a few days.

Nothing like a real cold month though, bore no relation to 2010 say.

And there has been a distinct lack of real rain,
just one wet day in November (with over 60mm).

But that's significantly more than your wettest day in Philip Hammond's stormy Nov 2015, when your wettest day was 40.8mm according to my COL database. The railway line was washed away this year, no such issues in Nov. 2015..

My last really wet November was 2009 with 270mm. 2015 just 142.8mm

Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--

I've a lot more respect for Philip Eden than the MetO (as an organisation with their "Who needs people or actual observations when you have so much computing power" attitude.) It was such a different and much more approachable organisation back in the 20th century, often helpful even. I even had people pop around to drop in satellite imagery in those pre broadband days. That's not to say there aren't good people still working in the MetO, but they are disappearing by the day.

Philip supplied me with so much historical data, as well as equipment & friendship.


Philip Eden was always completely selfless with his time whenever I had, mostly email, contact with him. My contact with the Met Office now is erratic ; how helpful they are seems to depend on how sympathetic the librarian is on the day. Sometimes you get the: "We can offer this service for your climate stats needs..." the service cost is often out the reach of amateurs.

Contrast this to an episode in the late 1980s when I was enquiring about drawings for a Stevenson screen. I was put through to the woodwork department (I think) - a very helpful gentleman, in an understandably bemused tone, agreed to send me draughtsman quality drawings for a wooden screen on the understanding that I would use them to produce only one screen for my own use..
I somehow can't imagine that happening today.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:57:00 PM UTC, Adam Lea wrote:
On 05/12/2016 10:23, Graham Easterling wrote:
The forecasters have been going on about cold, lack of stormy weather and the like for an age now.

But it hasn't been that cold has it? I mean, there's been some cold nights, notably in the Somerset levels & Thames valley, but overall http://www..met.reading.ac.uk/~brugge/anomt.jpg more places have been mild of late.

I saw a recent video clip where John Hammond went on about the lack of storminess compared with last year. True, if you live in much of Scotland, NW England or N Wales, so it was unfortunate that he showed a picture of a stormy Penzance prom. Not sure when it was taken, but certainly not last November as was implied, when the stongest gust here was just 44mph and there were only 2 days with onshore winds. In fact pointing to an example from SW England was a bad call as Nov 2016 has been a wetter than 2015 across much of the southern half of England. In the SW whilst nothing much happened in November last year, the railway line was washed away in several places this year. He should have pointed to somewhere 'up north'.

Anyway, back to the cold - or rather lack of it.
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically perspective when you need them?

I think part of the issue is people now spend so much time gazing into model forecasts, supported by a stream of MetO 'it's going to a cold, cold winter' clips, that actual observations fall into 2nd place. I won't go into a rant about the MetO lack of interest in observations, but if you ask me . . .

Graham
Penzance


November has been a chilly month in Surrey and Sussex, with frequent
frosts, temperatures down to mid-low single digits and overnight
temperatures down to -6C last week. It has also been a benign and fairly
sunny month, with frequent anticyclonic influence. I would say that in
my location, November 2016 felt more like an average January in terms of
temperature. The CET and observations on the UKWeatherworld forum
support my claim that November was colder than normal in many places in
the UK.

I did say that there were clearly variations place to place, however, in SE England most places were -0.5 to -1.2C compared to the norm, so on the cold side, but in no way very cold.

Uasing a month like December 2010 as a benchmark for cold in the UK is
ridiculous. That month has something like a 100 year return level for
temperature, and was one of very few months in the last 100 years to
have a negative CET value. You wouldn't write off every winter storm
that affects southern England and caused damage and disruption and
didn't exceed the October 1987 storm wind speeds just because it is more
frequent in the Shetland islands.

I only referred to 2010, as it was the last really cold November. 2010 may have a return period of 100 years, 2016 certainly didn't! There have been 6 colder Novembers in the last 25 years here. I see nothing wrong in using a true extreme event to put other rather 'cold' months into historical perspective.

What next, are we going to say a
summer day is not hot unless it compares to the 36-38C temperatures
experienced last July, July 2006 and August 2003?

I thought I'd already said I was talking about variances from the norm, charts of which are widely available. So yes, if you have a hot spell it is interesting to see how it compares to an extreme year in your location. In the case of Penzance, 32C would be a new record for any month.

Graham
Penzance

"Scott W" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:16:03 PM UTC, Graham Easterling wrote:
SNIP
V. cold Yr Normal Yr.
Penzance 2010 2016
MIN MAX MIN MAX
24/11 2.2 9.1 5.4 12.7
25/11 0.5 6.3 7.6 10.3
26/11 2.1 7.4 7.2 10.1
27/11 0.6 4.2 3.7 9.8
28/11 -4.3! 4.6 5.7 9.7
29/11 -3.8 3.3 3.4 8.0
30/11 -2.0 3.2 0.1 10.7
01/12 -0.6 3.1 1.3 11.5
02/12 -1.5 2.3 2.5 10.4
03/12 -3.0 6.1 7.3 9.7
04/12 -0.7 8.7 8.0 11.4 (at 09:00 today)
05/12 2.8 5.8 9.3 (13.0C looks likely)

Where are people like Lamb & Philip Eden to add a bit of historically
perspective when you need them?

..................................................

Well it was a cold month up here on Dartmoor (also in the SW). Hard
frozen
ground on quite a few days.

Nothing like a real cold month though, bore no relation to 2010 say.

And there has been a distinct lack of real rain,
just one wet day in November (with over 60mm).

But that's significantly more than your wettest day in Philip Hammond's
stormy Nov 2015, when your wettest day was 40.8mm according to my COL
database. The railway line was washed away this year, no such issues in
Nov. 2015.

My last really wet November was 2009 with 270mm. 2015 just 142.8mm

Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--

I've a lot more respect for Philip Eden than the MetO (as an organisation
with their "Who needs people or actual observations when you have so much
computing power" attitude.) It was such a different and much more
approachable organisation back in the 20th century, often helpful even. I
even had people pop around to drop in satellite imagery in those pre
broadband days. That's not to say there aren't good people still working
in the MetO, but they are disappearing by the day.

Philip supplied me with so much historical data, as well as equipment &
friendship.


Philip Eden was always completely selfless with his time whenever I had,
mostly email, contact with him. My contact with the Met Office now is
erratic ; how helpful they are seems to depend on how sympathetic the
librarian is on the day. Sometimes you get the: "We can offer this service
for your climate stats needs..." the service cost is often out the reach of
amateurs.

Contrast this to an episode in the late 1980s when I was enquiring about
drawings for a Stevenson screen. I was put through to the woodwork
department (I think) - a very helpful gentleman, in an understandably
bemused tone, agreed to send me draughtsman quality drawings for a wooden
screen on the understanding that I would use them to produce only one screen
for my own use.
I somehow can't imagine that happening today.
============

Certainly not, screens are made out of UPVc nowadays. Wood is so 20th
Century. There was also no such thing as a woodwork depoartment, it was most
likely the Instrument Branch at Beaufort Park. There are many people working
at the MetO now who will have never seen a Stevenson Screen. Meteorology is
now a specialism withing the Met Office, along with Project Management,
Sales, IT etc.

Will
--
" Some sects believe that the world was created 5000 years ago. Another sect
believes that it was created in 1910 "
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

Well it was a cold month up here on Dartmoor (also in the SW). Hard frozen
ground on quite a few days. And there has been a distinct lack of real rain,
just one wet day in November (with over 60mm). Only 168.6mm last month in
total. Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--
" Some sects believe that the world was created 5000 years ago. Another sect
believes that it was created in 1910 "
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------

Talking about sniping.
My contacts in the Met Office said Will Hand was a bit of a maverick, their words not mine, and a moaner and groaner.
Well, you can find all types in the UKMO. Some more colourful than others.

;-)

Len
Wembury, SW Devon
================================================== =============

Or less. 8))

On 06/12/2016 13:13, Norman Lynagh wrote:

SNIP

Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--

Nothing wrong with a bit of constructive criticism (a better term than
'sniping'!) provided it is justified, as Philip's almost always was. Until
relatively recently, no-one in the private sector was respected in the Met
Office. Times have changed.


I've a lot more respect for Philip Eden than the MetO (as an organisation
with their "Who needs people or actual observations when you have so much
computing power" attitude.) It was such a different and much more
approachable organisation back in the 20th century, often helpful even. I
even had people pop around to drop in satellite imagery in those pre
broadband days. That's not to say there aren't good people still working in
the MetO, but they are disappearing by the day.

Philip supplied me with so much historical data, as well as equipment &
friendship.

Graham
Penzance

I agree. Philip has always been very generous with his knowledge. Over the
years he must have spent hundreds of hours generating information for
'enthusiasts', all at no charge.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Showed me a lot of hospitality when I met him. A wealth of information
and knowledge which he freely shared. It is sad that he is not well now.
He told me many years ago the reason why he left USW. I'll let you draw
your own inferences.
Dave

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

"Len Wood" wrote in message
...


Well it was a cold month up here on Dartmoor (also in the SW). Hard
frozen
ground on quite a few days. And there has been a distinct lack of real
rain,
just one wet day in November (with over 60mm). Only 168.6mm last month in
total. Philip Eden was not respected in the MetO due to his constant
sniping
from the sidelines.

Will
--
Talking about sniping.
My contacts in the Met Office said Will Hand was a bit of a maverick,
their words not mine, and a moaner and groaner.
Well, you can find all types in the UKMO. Some more colourful than others.

;-)


That was from the inside Len, bit of a difference. I was also a Union
official and it was my job to challenge the status quo. Yes I was a maverick
too and proud of it as my job was a senior scientist doing innovative
research. I was essentially my own boss for 5 years in research activity. My
"enemies" were the politically correct corporate people, the folk for whom
the bottom line was everything. Some senior managers hated me for what I
said and did - good! I was often in trouble for telling things how it was
and speaking up.

Will
--
" Some sects believe that the world was created 5000 years ago. Another sect
believes that it was created in 1910 "
http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm
Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl)
---------------------------------------------