I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' - with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816. This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November, so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead their horses by lantern".

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.

On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:29:19 UTC+1, Scott W wrote:
I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' - with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816. This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November, so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead their horses by lantern".

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a solar eclipse last night too,
or so the man on the moon told me.

Len
Wembury

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:49:02 UTC+1, Len Wood wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:29:19 UTC+1, Scott W wrote:
I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' - with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816. This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November, so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead their horses by lantern".

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a solar eclipse last night too,
or so the man on the moon told me.

Len
Wembury

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses. Obviously, some are just partial and not total. I don't think it's even likely looking back at the lists in Wikipedia that a year without either is ever possible, so you can't pick out any particular year out for being special just on the number of solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Bruce.

On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 14:54:27 UTC+1, xmetman wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:49:02 UTC+1, Len Wood wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:29:19 UTC+1, Scott W wrote:
I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' - with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816. This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November, so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead their horses by lantern".

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a solar eclipse last night too,
or so the man on the moon told me.

Len
Wembury

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses. Obviously, some are just partial and not total. I don't think it's even likely looking back at the lists in Wikipedia that a year without either is ever possible, so you can't pick out any particular year out for being special just on the number of solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Bruce.

There can be between two and five solar eclipses in a year and the number of lunar eclipses is between none and three. This doesn't count penumbral lunar eclipses, where part of the moon and possibly all of it sees only a partial eclipse of the sun by the earth. They are mostly barely noticeable.
I can't believe that eclipses affect the weather except temporarily and very locally, obviously.

Tudor Hughes, Warlingham, Surrey.

On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 15:31:27 UTC+1, Tudor Hughes wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 14:54:27 UTC+1, xmetman wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:49:02 UTC+1, Len Wood wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:29:19 UTC+1, Scott W wrote:
I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' - with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816. This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November, so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead their horses by lantern".

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a solar eclipse last night too,
or so the man on the moon told me.

Len
Wembury

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses. Obviously, some are just partial and not total. I don't think it's even likely looking back at the lists in Wikipedia that a year without either is ever possible, so you can't pick out any particular year out for being special just on the number of solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Bruce.

There can be between two and five solar eclipses in a year and the number of lunar eclipses is between none and three. This doesn't count penumbral lunar eclipses, where part of the moon and possibly all of it sees only a partial eclipse of the sun by the earth. They are mostly barely noticeable.
I can't believe that eclipses affect the weather except temporarily and very locally, obviously.

Perhaps weatherlawyer could enlighten us?

I also forgot to mention the Tambora eruption that happened in 1815 - which greatly affected the world's weather afterward. We must be well overdue a super eruption like this one?

--

------------------------------
This email was sent by a company owned by Pearson plc, registered office at
80 Strand, London WC2R 0RL. Registered in England and Wales with company
number 53723.

On 29/09/2015 14:54, xmetman wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:49:02 UTC+1, Len Wood wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2015 20:29:19 UTC+1, Scott W wrote:
I noticed on another forum that this year has been similar to 1816 - the 'year without a summer' -
with very poor weather in Scotland and a solar and lunar eclipse.

It is years without any lunar eclipses that are vanishingly rare.

Typically you get between four partial and two total lunar eclipses per
year visible from half the surface of the Earth.

Total solar eclipses are rarer since the moons shadow is much smaller
than the Earths and so a tighter alignment is needed and the visibility
due to the shadow track on the Earth very specific and narrow.

Luke Howard, in the Climate of London, mentions that a lunar eclipse occurred on December 5th, 1816.
This happened less than a month after a solar eclipse was reported
in Germany, on November 19th.

October that year was wet with a cold snap and snow in November. Thick fog was reported at the end of November,
so dense that coachmen in Walworth and Camberwell "had to lead
their horses by lantern".

I recall in the days of real coal fires and smogs a November *without*
thick fog was also incredibly rare. This persisted until the clean air
act took effect in the late 1960's.

The Inverness Journal that year reported that winter had commenced with "severity beyond example".

Another cold snap in December was interrupted by a mild spell on 23rd and a wet and stormy Xmas period. The cold returned on January 7th.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a solar eclipse last night too,
or so the man on the moon told me.

Len
Wembury

Total lunar eclipse early on Monday morning and very pretty it was too.
More a copper coloured than deep red blood moon. It was very well placed
for observing from the UK well above the horizon for the whole event if
you were prepared to get up at 2am to observe it. The last one was
barely above the horizon in mid winter.

It is possible to have a lunar and solar eclipse in the same month and
sometimes two lunar eclipses in the same month.

Scott

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses. Obviously, some are just partial and not total.
I don't think it's even likely looking back at the lists in Wikipedia
that a year without either is ever possible,
so you can't pick out any particular year out for being special just
on the number of solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Some years do have significantly better ones than others and tidal
forcing has known periodicities derived from lunar and solar orbital
periods. The most well known being the Saros (18.06y) and Inex (29.0y)
which can be used to categorise families of solar eclipses.

After 3 Saros you get a fairly similar eclipse in about the same place
on the Earth and after 2 Inex likewise. Other well known tidal
periodicities of 31y and 93y are also linked to orbital dynamics.

Longer term Milankovich cycles are linked to the evolution of the
Earth-Moon system orbital elements.

The tidal periodicities include components at 54y and 58y which beat.
The Keeling tides hypothesis is one which seeks to relate the tidal
forcing resulting from the Earth-Moon-Sun interraction to climate.

I honestly think there is a distinct possibility that tidal forcing does
affect deep ocean mixing although at present very few professional
meteorologists will give this idea the time of day.

If you look at the recent pattern of the PDO graph it isn't hard to see
what looks like a ~60y alternating periodicity in the record
(alternating phase every 29y with the Inex cycle).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifi...a/File:PDO.svg

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 29/09/2015 15:31, Tudor Hughes wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 14:54:27 UTC+1, xmetman wrote:

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses.
Obviously, some are just partial and not total. I don't think it's
even likely looking back
at the lists in Wikipedia that a year without either is ever
possible, so you can't pick out
any particular year out for being special just on the number of
solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Bruce.

There can be between two and five solar eclipses in a year and the number of lunar eclipses is between none and three.
This doesn't count penumbral lunar eclipses, where part of the moon
and possibly all of it sees only a partial eclipse of the sun by the earth.
They are mostly barely noticeable.
I can't believe that eclipses affect the weather except temporarily and very locally, obviously.

I don't think eclipses themselves do affect the weather beyond a little
local cooling. But the variation in the alignment of the Earth-Moon-Sun
system does dramatically alter the tidal range when conditions are just
right (although not necessarily accompanied by an actual eclipse).

http://www.statisticbrain.com/solar-...se-statistics/

Keeling tides looks at this possibility as an explanation of longer term
climate variations and some shorter term ones. It isn't beyond the
realms of possibility that the observed ~60y periodicity of the PDO is
pumped by the Earth-Moon orbital dynamical system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perigean_spring_tide

See also

https://pangea.stanford.edu/research...mateChange.pdf

And for balance one against the idea

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI4193.1

I don't agree with either in terms of periods they propose as strongest.
As an astronomer I reckon the main multidecadal lunar tidal forcings
will correspond to 3xSaros ~54y and 2xInex ~58y.

There is a hint of the latter 58y in one of Keeling & Whorfs other paper
but they overcooked their MEM spectral analysis leading to peak
splitting on the 18y line and shifting distortion of the 29y line.

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/16/83...8-dfbb41b1169c

The peaks they have as 21.67 & 15.20 should be a bigger one at 18.4

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wednesday, 30 September 2015 11:37:00 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 29/09/2015 15:31, Tudor Hughes wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 14:54:27 UTC+1, xmetman wrote:

Every year there are two or more solar and a similar number of lunar eclipses.
Obviously, some are just partial and not total. I don't think it's
even likely looking back
at the lists in Wikipedia that a year without either is ever
possible, so you can't pick out
any particular year out for being special just on the number of
solar or lunar eclipses that occur.

Bruce.

There can be between two and five solar eclipses in a year and the number of lunar eclipses is between none and three.
This doesn't count penumbral lunar eclipses, where part of the moon
and possibly all of it sees only a partial eclipse of the sun by the earth.
They are mostly barely noticeable.
I can't believe that eclipses affect the weather except temporarily and very locally, obviously.

I don't think eclipses themselves do affect the weather beyond a little
local cooling. But the variation in the alignment of the Earth-Moon-Sun
system does dramatically alter the tidal range when conditions are just
right (although not necessarily accompanied by an actual eclipse).

http://www.statisticbrain.com/solar-...se-statistics/

Keeling tides looks at this possibility as an explanation of longer term
climate variations and some shorter term ones. It isn't beyond the
realms of possibility that the observed ~60y periodicity of the PDO is
pumped by the Earth-Moon orbital dynamical system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perigean_spring_tide

See also

https://pangea.stanford.edu/research...mateChange.pdf

And for balance one against the idea

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI4193.1

I don't agree with either in terms of periods they propose as strongest.
As an astronomer I reckon the main multidecadal lunar tidal forcings
will correspond to 3xSaros ~54y and 2xInex ~58y.

There is a hint of the latter 58y in one of Keeling & Whorfs other paper
but they overcooked their MEM spectral analysis leading to peak
splitting on the 18y line and shifting distortion of the 29y line.

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/16/83...8-dfbb41b1169c

The peaks they have as 21.67 & 15.20 should be a bigger one at 18.4

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin

Thanks for such a detailed answer, you certainly know your subject.

Bruce