In message 20150730102234.03aac663@home-1, Graham P Davis
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Scott W wrote:

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:38:08 PM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
In message , George Booth
writes
On 29/07/2015 11:34, Graham P Davis wrote:

Yes, the Gulf Stream never will shut down and never has done;
it's the North Atlantic Drift (NAD) that sometimes disappears
when the Gulf Stream weakens.

Thankyou Graham for drawing the distinction between the Gulf
Stream and the NAD. Time and again I read of 'the warm waters of
the Gulf Stream lapping onto the beaches of X,Y and Z resort on
our west coast'. The Gulf Stream is thousands of miles away to the
west, whilst what we experience are the various branches of the
North Atlantic Drift. Still, I suppose Gulf Stream sounds better.


I remember that my O-Level geography teacher was very careful to
distinguish between the two.

Yes, mine too. I remember he produced this graphic which very
cleverly distinguished the two - the NAD being a broken line offshoot
from the gulf stream, gradually fading the further north it went.

What bothers me is that scientists make the same error. From the TV
programme "The Big Chill" on the BBC a dozen years ago, comes this
quote:

++++
PROF BILL MCGUI I think we’d be extraordinarily poorly equipped to
deal with a gulf stream shutdown. If we’re dealing with a situation
where snow is on the ground for perhaps thirty days a year or maybe up
to a hundred days a year, with temperatures regularly down in the minus
twenties, I think we’ll find it very, very difficult to cope with that.
++++

The full load of similar crap can be found he
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...illtrans.shtml
For once, can't blame Horizon media types for this one; it's the
scientists wot dunnit.
snip

Is it perhaps that they are well aware of the difference but think - or
have been told by the producer - that using the term North Atlantic
Drift would confuse the audience?
--
I'm not paid to implement the recognition of irony.
(Taken, with the author's permission, from a LiveJournal post)

On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 10:50:09 +0100
John Hall wrote:

In message 20150730102234.03aac663@home-1, Graham P Davis
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Scott W wrote:

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:38:08 PM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
In message , George Booth
writes
On 29/07/2015 11:34, Graham P Davis wrote:

Yes, the Gulf Stream never will shut down and never has done;
it's the North Atlantic Drift (NAD) that sometimes disappears
when the Gulf Stream weakens.

Thankyou Graham for drawing the distinction between the Gulf
Stream and the NAD. Time and again I read of 'the warm waters of
the Gulf Stream lapping onto the beaches of X,Y and Z resort on
our west coast'. The Gulf Stream is thousands of miles away to
the west, whilst what we experience are the various branches of
the North Atlantic Drift. Still, I suppose Gulf Stream sounds
better.


I remember that my O-Level geography teacher was very careful to
distinguish between the two.

Yes, mine too. I remember he produced this graphic which very
cleverly distinguished the two - the NAD being a broken line
offshoot from the gulf stream, gradually fading the further north
it went.

What bothers me is that scientists make the same error. From the TV
programme "The Big Chill" on the BBC a dozen years ago, comes this
quote:

++++
PROF BILL MCGUI I think we’d be extraordinarily poorly equipped to
deal with a gulf stream shutdown. If we’re dealing with a situation
where snow is on the ground for perhaps thirty days a year or maybe
up to a hundred days a year, with temperatures regularly down in the
minus twenties, I think we’ll find it very, very difficult to cope
with that. ++++

The full load of similar crap can be found he
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...illtrans.shtml
For once, can't blame Horizon media types for this one; it's the
scientists wot dunnit.
snip

Is it perhaps that they are well aware of the difference but think -
or have been told by the producer - that using the term North
Atlantic Drift would confuse the audience?

Seeing as how they claim to have discovered things that I'd read about
35 years before the broadcast, I reckon that they are just incompetent.

Trouble is, they're not alone in being unaware that some things they
have "discovered" have been known about for decades. We recently had
some researchers saying they were shocked to find that drinking milk
prevented heart disease. If they'd followed the news over the years,
let alone doing a little basic research, they'd have known of other
pieces of research that had discovered this decades earlier.

I see July's Weather has an article "Atmospheric circulation patterns
associated with extreme cold winters in the UK". In its conclusions it
found "SSTs [. . .] demonstrated no conclusive relationship with
extreme cold winters". Not a surprising result given that they looked in
the wrong places and ignored any research prior to 1975. How can anyone
produce an article researching, amongst other things, the effect of SST
anomalies on weather patterns without any reference to Lamb, Murray,
Namias, etc.?

Perhaps the problem with these ignoramuses is that they're all far too
young.

--
Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks. [Retd meteorologist/programmer]
http://www.scarlet-jade.com/
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.
Posted with Claws: http://www.claws-mail.org/

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 12:03:11 PM UTC+1, Graham P Davis wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2015 10:50:09 +0100
John Hall wrote:

In message 20150730102234.03aac663@home-1, Graham P Davis
writes
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 18:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
Scott W wrote:

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:38:08 PM UTC+1, John Hall wrote:
In message , George Booth
writes
On 29/07/2015 11:34, Graham P Davis wrote:

Yes, the Gulf Stream never will shut down and never has done;
it's the North Atlantic Drift (NAD) that sometimes disappears
when the Gulf Stream weakens.

Thankyou Graham for drawing the distinction between the Gulf
Stream and the NAD. Time and again I read of 'the warm waters of
the Gulf Stream lapping onto the beaches of X,Y and Z resort on
our west coast'. The Gulf Stream is thousands of miles away to
the west, whilst what we experience are the various branches of
the North Atlantic Drift. Still, I suppose Gulf Stream sounds
better.


I remember that my O-Level geography teacher was very careful to
distinguish between the two.

Yes, mine too. I remember he produced this graphic which very
cleverly distinguished the two - the NAD being a broken line
offshoot from the gulf stream, gradually fading the further north
it went.

What bothers me is that scientists make the same error. From the TV
programme "The Big Chill" on the BBC a dozen years ago, comes this
quote:

++++
PROF BILL MCGUI I think we'd be extraordinarily poorly equipped to
deal with a gulf stream shutdown. If we're dealing with a situation
where snow is on the ground for perhaps thirty days a year or maybe
up to a hundred days a year, with temperatures regularly down in the
minus twenties, I think we'll find it very, very difficult to cope
with that. ++++

The full load of similar crap can be found he
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...illtrans.shtml
For once, can't blame Horizon media types for this one; it's the
scientists wot dunnit.
snip

Is it perhaps that they are well aware of the difference but think -
or have been told by the producer - that using the term North
Atlantic Drift would confuse the audience?

Seeing as how they claim to have discovered things that I'd read about
35 years before the broadcast, I reckon that they are just incompetent.

Trouble is, they're not alone in being unaware that some things they
have "discovered" have been known about for decades. We recently had
some researchers saying they were shocked to find that drinking milk
prevented heart disease. If they'd followed the news over the years,
let alone doing a little basic research, they'd have known of other
pieces of research that had discovered this decades earlier.

I see July's Weather has an article "Atmospheric circulation patterns
associated with extreme cold winters in the UK". In its conclusions it
found "SSTs [. . .] demonstrated no conclusive relationship with
extreme cold winters". Not a surprising result given that they looked in
the wrong places and ignored any research prior to 1975. How can anyone
produce an article researching, amongst other things, the effect of SST
anomalies on weather patterns without any reference to Lamb, Murray,
Namias, etc.?

Perhaps the problem with these ignoramuses is that they're all far too
young.


Graham, that is very interesting. I, too, find it strange that previous research is not taken into account. When you look back at climate records, and with the recent benefit of reanalysis charts, you see the events, at least in the area of record, are not so 'unprecedented'.
The other fact I find equally annoying is the apparent disregard of temperature and rainfall records before 1911.
At a recent RMetS meeting I found it interesting how the younger members of the scientific community had complete faith in models up to 100 years ahead while the older members were more sceptical.

"Alastair McDonald" wrote in message ...

So I suppose my question could be: Is the Jet Stream at a lower latitude
than normal (i.e. further south) and if so is that because of the cold pool
in the North Atlantic, or is it causing the cold pool?

I don't pretend to know the answer to this. But is there any reason why it
has to be either/or?

Couldn't they be mutually-reinforcing effects which encourage a metastable
ocean/atmospheric pattern that therefore persists more than would otherwise
be the case (at least until some greater seasonal or other influence comes
into play)?

Alastair Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 11:34:33 UTC+1, Graham P Davis wrote:

Yes, the Gulf Stream never will shut down and never has done; it's the
North Atlantic Drift (NAD) that sometimes disappears when the Gulf
Stream weakens.

I've been told that the abrupt climate changes, which are blamed on the changes to the thermohaline circulation, e.g. NAD, occur because there is a movement of the Polar Front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_front

Does anyone know what the connection between the polar front and the jet (not Gulf) stream is?

They both exist by virtue of temperature contrast in the
troposphere. They are often (but not always) colocated.


--
Freddie
Pontesbury
Shropshire
102m AMSL
http://www.hosiene.co.uk/weather/
http://twitter.com/PontesburyWx for hourly reports


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"Alastair McDonald" Wrote in message:

"Freddie" wrote in message
...
Alastair Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 29 July 2015 11:34:33 UTC+1, Graham P Davis wrote:

Yes, the Gulf Stream never will shut down and never has done; it's the
North Atlantic Drift (NAD) that sometimes disappears when the Gulf
Stream weakens.

I've been told that the abrupt climate changes, which are blamed on the
changes to the thermohaline circulation, e.g. NAD, occur because there is
a movement of the Polar Front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_front

Does anyone know what the connection between the polar front and the jet
(not Gulf) stream is?

They both exist by virtue of temperature contrast in the
troposphere. They are often (but not always) colocated.

Thanks Freddie.

I can see how the position of the Jet Stream is found, but how is the
position of the polar front determined? Or is it just the area in where the
Jet Stream operates?

Cheers, Alastair.



The polar front theoretically is found on the "warm" side of the
jet stream. In the northern hemisphere, if the jet stream were
blowing against your back then the polar front would be to your
left. This is a very simplistic view, though, as the two aren't
always co-located, and often there is more than one jet stream
(and front) to consider.

--
Freddie
Pontesbury
Shropshire
102m AMSL
http://www.hosiene.co.uk/weather/
http://twitter.com/PontesburyWx for hourly reports


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/