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[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
Hi, All,
I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0) http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:28:21 AM UTC, Ken Cook wrote:
Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Ken, I have 1.5kw system. The production over the last 2 full years has been 1445kwh and 1317 kwh respectively (last year only saw 88% of normal sunshine). Providing a total feed in tariff of £1160. It's not a case of wiring them into an emersion heater. The panels generate DC which goes into an inverter. The AC voltage is then output from the inverter marginally above the mains voltage, so your electrical system prioritises the home production for use. Obviously it makes sense to use the washing machine etc. when the sun's out. With a small system, it is normally assumed 50% is used on site, so you get an additional (though small) income for exporting 50%, £43 in my case over 2 years. Adding in what I'm saving on power, I should get my money back in Approx 9 years (I have a spreadsheet I can email you if you wish, which also allows for a return on investing the money I spent.) Savings over the last 2 years have been £1160 - FIT £ 43 - Export £ 115 - Est bill saving on the home use portion £1318 - Total My panels were installed by a local firm who have also done many schools etc in Cornwall, and the Eden Project. NO good to you but their website is excellent in explaining things. My home on their site http://www.plugintothesun.co.uk/case...e-in-penzance/ Word of warning. Apart from the fact your sunshine totals are significantly less than mine, I also get reflectio off the sea. Anyone who regular visits the coast will know how much the light increases on a brightish but cloudy day near the sea. My panels often generate 600w under thinish Sc, you'd get nothing like that inland. Also, the winter angle of the sun at your latitude beccomes more of an issue. There are maps on the WEB (somewhere) which show approx annual generation per kw of panels over England. Your area is a good 30% lower than the south coast of Cornwall. Email me if you want more info Graham Penzance |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Feb 25, 10:28*am, "Ken Cook" wrote:
Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0)http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest Hi Ken, I have a 1.9 kW system with 8 panels. That is all I could get on my roof. I am pleased with it, but I did get it installed last Feb before the feed-in tariff went down. I received 1700 kWh over the last year. The price of the panels has come down to compensate a little for the lower tariff now. I would go for as many panels as you can. 3 kW sounds good. Then you can use the decent amount you are generating on sunny days in the summer. Len Wembury, SW Devon |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
Hi Ken,
We live off grid and rely almost entirely on them. Not only do they provide us with 95% of our electricity (the generator has to be run now and then in winter) but they generate nearly £2000 in payments!!(on the original FIT) Marcus Allen is a great guy and will quote. He was considerably less than everyone else and gives good back up. 07968840325 He is Marlborough way but does travel. Mike Icy IOW |
Solar panels (PV type)
"Len Wood" wrote in message ... On Feb 25, 10:28 am, "Ken Cook" wrote: Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0)http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest Hi Ken, I have a 1.9 kW system with 8 panels. That is all I could get on my roof. I am pleased with it, but I did get it installed last Feb before the feed-in tariff went down. I received 1700 kWh over the last year. The price of the panels has come down to compensate a little for the lower tariff now. I would go for as many panels as you can. 3 kW sounds good. Then you can use the decent amount you are generating on sunny days in the summer. ============================== I explored it last year but was told by a very good reputable company that it wasn't worth it for my large Edwardian house. I appreciated their honesty. The problem was not the cloudy skies we get on Dartmoor but the nature of my roof. It is not one slope but essentially 4 separate steeply pitched roofs each covering a relatively small area. Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for heating was totally out of question with only a small roof area facing south. So a waste of time as we will move up north before then. To be more green we now burn more logs in the winter and try and use less oil. Will -- |
Solar panels (PV type)
Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for
heating was totally out of question Will -- Don't understand this bit. What you use the power for is based on what appliances you are using when the sun's out (or it's bright). The supply from the inverter being taken in preference to that from the mains. So use power when the sun shines! In any case for solar PV the payback time is largely dependent on the FIT. As the inverters are quite expensive, it makes sense to go for as many panels as is practical. It's also worth pointing out that the panels can be mounted in an unshaded garden, which I don't have, if the roof is unsuitable. They do need to face between SSE & SSW though. I was limited to 1 row of panels, as the lower part of my roof gets a good deal of shade in the winter, and shading of just 1 panel in a traditional set up dramatically reduces the output. There are new systems now which, with additional wiring & electronics, overcome this, presumably by having multiple feeds into the inverter. Graham Penzance |
Solar panels (PV type)
"Graham Easterling" wrote in message ... Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for heating was totally out of question Will -- Don't understand this bit. What you use the power for is based on what appliances you are using when the sun's out (or it's bright). The supply from the inverter being taken in preference to that from the mains. So use power when the sun shines! In any case for solar PV the payback time is largely dependent on the FIT. As the inverters are quite expensive, it makes sense to go for as many panels as is practical. It's also worth pointing out that the panels can be mounted in an unshaded garden, which I don't have, if the roof is unsuitable. They do need to face between SSE & SSW though. I was limited to 1 row of panels, as the lower part of my roof gets a good deal of shade in the winter, and shading of just 1 panel in a traditional set up dramatically reduces the output. There are new systems now which, with additional wiring & electronics, overcome this, presumably by having multiple feeds into the inverter. ======================================== But when the sun's out we are normally outside enjoying ourselves not using appliances indoors. We really need energy in winter and the sun don't shine much in winter up here! I do have an unshaded garden and that is a good point, but do I really want to sacrifice my beautiful garden for some unsightly panels to save a few pennies? Will -- http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl) --------------------------------------------- |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Feb 25, 10:28*am, "Ken Cook" wrote:
Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0)http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest As Graham hints, shading can be a problem. Some of my panels are shaded for part of the day in winter. There is a system called SolarEdge which means you still generate solar even though some panels may be shaded. I had it installed with my system at no extra cost. It communicates with a remote server and you can view your output from each panel at any time of the day via your PC. My installer was SunGift Solar. A very good Exeter company in my opinion. But there must be some company more local to you who know about Solaredge. No need for this though if you have no problem with shading. Len Wembury |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
"Mike McMillan" wrote in message
... Hi Ken, We live off grid and rely almost entirely on them. Not only do they provide us with 95% of our electricity (the generator has to be run now and then in winter) but they generate nearly £2000 in payments!!(on the original FIT) Marcus Allen is a great guy and will quote. He was considerably less than everyone else and gives good back up. 07968840325 He is Marlborough way but does travel. Hi, All, Thanks for all the replies. I am becoming more convinced as time goes on that they are a worthwhile investment. I estimate payback time to be around 8 years and my estimate of Feed In Tariff alone equals what I now pay for my electricity, not to mention actual savings and exported energy. Using a system such as Immersun or Solic 200, I hope to use most of the electricity on the immersion, storing hot water in the tank and having little left for exporting back at the lower rate. Fridge, washing machine, dishwasher etc that run during the day will use some also. I was worried about wind damage but am encouraged by Graham, Len and Mike who live in quite windy areas and don't mention it as a problem. My quotes include high wind fixings. Graham, would you send me your spreadsheet, please - much appreciated. I will not, obviously, get the sunshine you have there, but we do have a surprising amount here. The largest percentage of sunshine is, unfortunately, in winter! There is no shading and we face SW and our summer days are long. If I install the panels, I'll let you know how things progress. One final worry - I have heard horror stories about inverters failing so I would take out a long warranty on this part (not a bad deal, actually). Anyone heard of problems such as this or panel failure etc? Thanks again, Ken |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:30:50 -0800 (PST), Graham Easterling wrote:
Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for heating was totally out of question Don't understand this bit. What you use the power for is based on what appliances you are using when the sun's out (or it's bright). I sort of get the feeling Will is confusing Solar Thermal and Solar PV. The former generate heat the latter electricity. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:30:50 -0800 (PST), Graham Easterling wrote: Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for heating was totally out of question Don't understand this bit. What you use the power for is based on what appliances you are using when the sun's out (or it's bright). I sort of get the feeling Will is confusing Solar Thermal and Solar PV. The former generate heat the latter electricity. My heating is by oil and logs. It would be nice to use solar energy for heating as well but I was told that because of the size of my roof that heating the house by electricity was out of the question using PV arrays. My electric bill is pretty cheap anyway (in fact I'm still in credit due to former poor estimated bills). My heating bill is not huge either come to that as we use our own timber for logs and we keep a cool house :-) So for me to lash out on a solar system is simply not worth it unless somebody can tell me differently. Will -- http://www.lyneside.demon.co.uk/Hayt...antage_Pro.htm Will Hand (Haytor, Devon, 1017 feet asl) --------------------------------------------- |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:21 -0000, Ken Cook wrote:
Any guidance much appreciated. If you are happy about the ethics involved and that it is pure money investment scheme and nothing to do with saving the planet then fine. I'll just regard you as a rich leech on society. The ethics are that the money that pays the FIT is raised from a levy on everyones electricity bill from the very poorest up. The poor can't afford the required capital investment so are effectively locked out of joining in but still have to pay. As a money based venture either it is economically viable or it is not. The FIT payments distort the market, by paying seriously over the going price for wholesale electricity. Solar PV would not be economically viable without the FIT payments. The electricity generated is not "green" even the best PV panels are not much more than 30% efficient, if that and efficiency drops as they get hot (like in summer). Also because of the variable and unpredictable nature of the power produced conventional plant has to be kept on "hot standby", burning fuel. to provide backup so any pretence that this is "carbon free" power is just that, a pretence. There is quite a high energy input in their manufacture and transport from China. I seriously doubt that Solar PV ever becomes energy positive, ie the system has produced more energy than was consumed in manufacture, transport, installation, maintenance and disposal. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:47:04 -0000, Eskimo Will wrote:
It would be nice to use solar energy for heating as well but I was told that because of the size of my roof that heating the house by electricity was out of the question using PV arrays. Space heating any conventional house with Solar PV is out of the question. |
Solar panels (PV type)
Eskimo Will wrote:
"Len Wood" wrote in message ... On Feb 25, 10:28 am, "Ken Cook" wrote: Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0)http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest Hi Ken, I have a 1.9 kW system with 8 panels. That is all I could get on my roof. I am pleased with it, but I did get it installed last Feb before the feed-in tariff went down. I received 1700 kWh over the last year. The price of the panels has come down to compensate a little for the lower tariff now. I would go for as many panels as you can. 3 kW sounds good. Then you can use the decent amount you are generating on sunny days in the summer. ============================== I explored it last year but was told by a very good reputable company that it wasn't worth it for my large Edwardian house. I appreciated their honesty. The problem was not the cloudy skies we get on Dartmoor but the nature of my roof. It is not one slope but essentially 4 separate steeply pitched roofs each covering a relatively small area. Estimated pay back time was 15 years+ using just for hot water, using for heating was totally out of question with only a small roof area facing south. So a waste of time as we will move up north before then. To be more green we now burn more logs in the winter and try and use less oil. Will --------------------------------- I didn't think you had heating ;-) |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Feb 25, 3:52*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:21 -0000, Ken Cook wrote: Any guidance much appreciated. If you are happy about the ethics involved and that it is pure money investment scheme and nothing to do with saving the planet then fine. I'll just regard you as a rich leech on society. The ethics are that the money that pays the FIT is raised from a levy on everyones electricity bill from the very poorest up. The poor can't afford the required capital investment so are effectively locked out of joining in but still have to pay. As a money based venture either it is economically viable or it is not. The FIT payments distort the market, by paying seriously over the going price for wholesale electricity. Solar PV would not be economically viable without the FIT payments. The electricity generated is not "green" even the best PV panels are not much more than 30% efficient, if that and efficiency drops as they get hot (like in summer). Also because of the variable and unpredictable nature of the power produced conventional plant has to be kept on "hot standby", burning fuel. to provide backup so any pretence that this is "carbon free" power is just that, a pretence. There is quite a high energy input in their manufacture and transport from China. I seriously doubt that Solar PV ever becomes energy positive, ie the system has produced more energy than was consumed in manufacture, transport, installation, maintenance and disposal. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. Your point about efficiency of PV panels is true. But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly exceeds output. We are only chipping away at the energy crisis with these green technologies. We are all doomed unless the government gets off its arse and puts tidal power and nuclear power into place as an urgent priority. Len Wembury |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Monday, 25 February 2013 16:50:45 UTC, Len Wood wrote:
Your point about efficiency of PV panels is true. But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly exceeds output. What about heat pumps? Output input every time? - Tom. |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
For anyone in the Southampton area next month a public talk on PV panels
from someone who designs the control systems Monday, 11 Mar 2013, Roger Munford - wide ranging talk , from the technical aspects of solar photovoltaic generation, the grid, storage, politics and economics all of which have changed dramatically in the last year Southwestern Arms (upstairs room) , 36 Adelaide Rd, St Denys, Southampton, SO17 2HW Time: 19:00 for talk 19:30 to 21:00. Plenty of time for questions and answers . Entry by a purchase at the bar or by donation in the tin, for the venue facilities. Monday, 15 Apr 2013, (third Monday) Prof Lindy Holden-Dye, optogenetics Monthly talks on a science subject Future talks, usually the second Monday of the month. To Be Confirmed (TBC) list, for future talks, in no particular order a/ Dr Helen Czerski , the science of bubbles b/ Prof Chris Rhodes : What happens when we run out of oil ? c/ A speaker on infectious disease control d/ Kim Webb, talk on horology - clock and watch escapements etc e/ Ian Bryant: "What are Minds ?" f/ A speaker on geology g/ Dr Ivo Tews: Crtstalography of organic materials Details of venue and any changes, valid email address etc http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/scicaf.htm recent past talks, including transcripts of talks and Q&A http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/scicaf2.htm Ken Cook wrote in message ... Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0) http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:48:53 -0800 (PST), Tom wrote:
But you name any energy system that is efficient. Input always greatly exceeds output. Ultimately the laws of of thermodynamics says that always has to be the case, provided you prefix "output" with "useful". What about heat pumps? Output input every time? When installed and running yes (though air source are crap overall with air temps between about freezing and a few degrees higher). I think that PV has such a high manufacturing energy cost, poor conversion effciency and only work for a few hours a day (on average) from a low energy density source that they are going to really struggle to recoup a significant amount of the energy used to make 'em. Solar Thermal is better, lower manufacturing energy cost, conversion effciency double if not more than that of PV, much better chance of becoming energy posistive. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:50:45 -0800 (PST), Len Wood wrote:
We are only chipping away at the energy crisis with these green technologies. We are all doomed unless the government gets off its arse and puts tidal power and nuclear power into place as an urgent priority. Tidal is not available all the time but at least it's predictable. Nuclear is the the only viable option with current energy demands. The government are trying but they aren't allowed to guarantee to pay the nuclear firms 40p plus per unit for their power, index linked for 25 years... After Merkels knee jerk reaction after Fukishima the entire nuclear industry doesn't trust any government to not arbitrially pull the plug on them. Bear in mind that Germany with it's nukes was a net exporter of power, the moment they switched 'em off Germany became a net importer of power. Guess where most of that power comes from, coal... Current UK demand 49.53 GW coming from: Coal 20.35 GW CC Gas 17.90 GW Nuke 7.84 GW Wind 1.03 GW Dutch 0.89 GW Hydro 0.52 GW BioMass 0.50 GW Pumped 0.28 GW France 0.12 GW 0.50 GW is being exported to Eire. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:28:21 AM UTC, Ken Cook wrote:
Hi, All, I'm thinking seriously about installing these PV panels and am looking for advice. I have a feeling there could be some expertise on this ng. I estimate about 2,200 kWh per annum for Copley from available data on the web, although the installers that I have quotes from reckon a touch more (believe it or not!) I hope to wire the immersion heater through them and use as much as I can rather than export. I have until April to decide as the FIT payment is reduced again then. I am thinking of a 3kW system. Does anyone out there have them? Are they any good overall or are they a con? Any guidance much appreciated. Copley still cold and cloudy 8cm snow lying and 1cm fresh fall this morning, but it's melting slowly (:0) http://www.kencook.magix.net/#Latest My brother has 14 panels on his roof, and he showed me the generation figures for the sunny days he had at the end of May 2012. I was surprised that even at the time of maximum solar radiation, his panels were only generating just over 2kwh. That is hardly enough to power the washing machine on a hot wash. For much of the day the amount of electricity generated was between 1 and 1.5 kwh. He was not too bothered, though, because he was selling to the grid. My father has solar heated oil filled panels on his roof, which heat the water in his hot water tank. From my experience of those, when the sun shines, even on a spring or autumn day, the water gets very hot. He tries to take advantage by using his dishwasher and washing machine when he has the 'free' hot water, but I don't know how much it saves him in electricity. If I had the choice, I think I would plump for my fathers' hot water system, but my appliances are all cold fill, so would need to be replaced which makes it a non-starter for me. |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:19:54 -0800 (PST), willie eckerslike wrote:
He was not too bothered, though, because he was selling to the grid. The export price is only 3p/unit. With an installation that old I think he'll be getting paid 43p/unit for *everything* his panels generate wether it's exported or not. He may well be deemed to export 50% of that total generation as well so gets 46p/unit for half of it *and* if he uses it himself doesn't have to buy power at say 10p/unit either, 56p/unit... My father has solar heated oil filled panels on his roof, which heat the water in his hot water tank. From my experience of those, when the sun shines, even on a spring or autumn day, the water gets very hot. Not heard of oil filled solar thermal panels, it's normally water with a lot of antifreeze (unless you have a drain back system). 30 mins of solar thermal activity so far today, it's not a particularly bright day either. Delta T across the thermal store was about 20 degrees and with a 3l/min flow rate through the collect that's something over 4kW. I have a couple of spare 1-Wire temperature sensors I think I'll attach them to the flow/return of the solar loop will be able to see how much energy it yields then. If I had the choice, I think I would plump for my fathers' hot water system, but my appliances are all cold fill, so would need to be replaced which makes it a non-starter for me. Not sure you'd find any appliances with hot fill these days. With washing machines the use of bio based low temperature cleaning agents means that they have to cold fill and heat as most domestic ho****er is too hot for the bio bits... Even if using non bio agents, heating mains water at say 15C to 40C in on step is better than heating 15 to 60+ and cooling it. They don't use much water either so hot fill may just fill the pipe with hot water with very little actually entering the machine. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... Current UK demand 49.53 GW coming from: For anyone wanting to monitor it for themselves: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ JGD |
Solar panels (PV type)
Tidal is not available all the time but at least it's predictable. Once we have enough tidal generators spread around the coast, it will be available all the time. Malcolm Indeed, for a relatively small island we are lucky with the range of tide times. It's worth making the point that most SolarPV generation does not appear in any official generation statistics. I'm not just talking about individual houses, where there is normally just a total production meter for the FIT, the export is simply not measured, or even off grid production, but even quite large systems. Take a look at http://www.theoldehouse.co.uk/page/solar_energy.html I know the family who run the farm and have been there a number of times. They have a largish farm (by Cornish standards) quite a large number of holiday cottages, leisure centre with pool & hot tub. So their power usage is substantial. The have a 250kw SolarPV system which generates about 250,000kwh per annum. Being a farm and holiday complex which is busiest in summer, much of this is used on site, only a small proportion is exported, but it is only the small proportion exported which gets in the statistics. The panels also provide useful shelter for the sheep. There are many such setups in Cornwall, going through the County it's surprising how many farms now make use of SolarPV. No land has been taken out of agricultural use, the panels also provide useful shelter for the sheep. Graham Penzance |
[OT] Solar panels (PV type)
On Monday, February 25, 2013 3:52:07 PM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:21 -0000, Ken Cook wrote: Any guidance much appreciated. If you are happy about the ethics involved and that it is pure money investment scheme and nothing to do with saving the planet then fine. I'll just regard you as a rich leech on society. The ethics are that the money that pays the FIT is raised from a levy on everyones electricity bill from the very poorest up. The poor can't afford the required capital investment so are effectively locked out of joining in but still have to pay. As a money based venture either it is economically viable or it is not. The FIT payments distort the market, by paying seriously over the going price for wholesale electricity. Solar PV would not be economically viable without the FIT payments. The electricity generated is not "green" even the best PV panels are not much more than 30% efficient, if that and efficiency drops as they get hot (like in summer). Also because of the variable and unpredictable nature of the power produced conventional plant has to be kept on "hot standby", burning fuel. to provide backup so any pretence that this is "carbon free" power is just that, a pretence. There is quite a high energy input in their manufacture and transport from China. I seriously doubt that Solar PV ever becomes energy positive, ie the system has produced more energy than was consumed in manufacture, transport, installation, maintenance and disposal. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. Well said, Dave. Like wind power it is just a money making scheme that lines the pockets of the people that can afford it and robs the people who cant.. The poor end up subsidising it - higher bills and falling ethics. I sincerely hope that when the revolution comes and it is coming (see Beppe Grillo in Italy) the people will take back what is rightfully theirs and those that complied with this disgraceful con lose out when the government contracts and feed in tariffs are declared void. No sympathy. IT WILL SERVE YOU ALL RIGHT!!!!! |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:48:52 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
What about heat pumps? Output input every time? When installed and running yes (though air source are crap overall with airtemps between about freezing and a few degrees higher). From personal experience, I disagree. With which bit? Crap performance of air source heat pumps with air temps just above 0C or contesting "Output input every time" on a cradle to grave basis? -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:31:40 -0800 (PST), Graham Easterling wrote:
Tidal is not available all the time but at least it's predictable. Once we have enough tidal generators spread around the coast, it will be available all the time. Indeed, for a relatively small island we are lucky with the range of tide times. But where do you *build* all these tidal systems? The have a 250kw SolarPV system which generates about 250,000kwh per annum. 250kW is a miniscule drop in an ocean at 0.00025 GW. But even that drop, when added with the other dropsn needs some other form of dispatchable generation capacity to back it up when the sun goes behind a cloud or simply because it's dark. The costs of this back up capacity is not bourn by the wind mills or solar PV that makes the grid need it. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
The have a 250kw SolarPV system which generates about 250,000kwh per
annum. 250kW is a miniscule drop in an ocean at 0.00025 GW. But even that drop, when added with the other dropsn needs some other form of dispatchable generation capacity to back it up when the sun goes behind a cloud or simply because it's dark. The costs of this back up capacity is not bourn by the wind mills or solar PV that makes the grid need it. Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. It is a very small drop, but get a lot of drops and you can start a Boscastle! I completely take your point about the need for backup. It is however better to have a carbon emitting station working on reduced output for much of the time, only peaking when 'renewable' input is low, than having it working flat out all the time. (at least from an environmental perspective) The need for backup reduces somewhat if you have a wide range of widely spread renewable options. Wave power hasn't been mentioned yet, but there are a number of projects, including the Wave Hub at Hayle. It currently only has a max capacity of 20mw, but this is easily upgradeable, as the cables come ashore at the old Hayle coal fired station, so much of the infrastructure to transport the power is in place. http://www.wavehub.co.uk/about/ (There are few days a year when there is little swell off west Cornwall, there's been a lovely wave for much of the time recently http://www.cornwallcam.co..uk/ I actually don't think our opinions are massively apart, just looking at things from a rather different angle. Graham Penzance (just 19m asl.) |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:34:48 -0800 (PST), Graham Easterling wrote:
It is a very small drop, but get a lot of drops and you can start a Boscastle! But even all the drops if you covered the country in PV panels isn't enough energy, even mid-day, mid-summer with no cloud anywhere. I completely take your point about the need for backup. It is however better to have a carbon emitting station working on reduced output for much of the time, only peaking when 'renewable' input is low, than having it working flat out all the time. (at least from an environmental perspective) But the efficiency of the dispatchable conventional plant falls as you reduce it's output. So a plant running at 80% may well be burning just as much gas as one running at 100%. The need for backup reduces somewhat if you have a wide range of widely spread renewable options. No every watt of direct wind, wave, tidal, PV renewable energy needs a watt of backup as you do not know if those sources are going to be available at any given time. Tidal is a bit different but will still have periods of low output (neap tides). About the only reliable renewable energy sources are the indirect ones, like bio-mass and bio-gas. Where there solar energy is captured and stored, just like oil, coal and gas except the turn around time from capture to use is measured in tens of years or less, rather than millions. But the energy captured per unit area is very low, so you need vast areas of land to grow these fuel crops... Use of suitable waste as an energy source has a place as well. But no matter what renewables will struggle to provide the reliable energy we have all become accustomed to. What is needed is a radical change in energy use, ie reduce it. Renewables then stand a chance of providing it. Instead of spending millions of pounds on subsidising commercial wind mills or funding PV based monetary investment schemes(*) they ought to be ensuring that the energy we do consume isn't wasted by, say, ensuring that *all* buildings are properly insulated. The "Green Deal" is available for everyone (I think) but TBH I'm not sure how well it is going to work in practice. Take up essentially relies on people feeling guilty about their energy use. IMHO the vast majority haven't a clue about how much energy they use, the bill comes in they pay it, they might whinge a bit when the price goes up but about all they can do about that is to see if there is a cheaper supplier. As they don't have a clue about their energy use seriously looking to see if they can reduce they amount they consume is "too difficult". If they do look the primary motivation is a large energy bill, are they going to opt to *increase* that energy bill via the Green Deal? And if buying the Green Deal stays with the property, the new owners *have* to take it over. Wave power hasn't been mentioned yet, but there are a number of projects, including the Wave Hub at Hayle. Wave power seems to be in the same camp as fusion. As they were saying before the 1970's "it will be commercially available 10 to 20 years". It currently only has a max capacity of 20mw, 20 what? The unit is named after James Watt so has a capitalised symbol, ie "W". Lowercase "m" is milli for 1/1000th or do you mean uppercase "m" for 1,000,000? 20 MW is also very little and would require backup as the waves aren't always there. but this is easily upgradable, as the cables come ashore at the old Hayle coal fired station, so much of the infrastructure to transport the power is in place. http://www.wavehub.co.uk/about/ "Wave Hub provides shared offshore infrastructure for the demonstration and proving of arrays of wave energy generation devices over a sustained period of time." So it's a 25 year leased test bed rather than a commercial venture. Not going to be much help in the next few winters... Upgrade to 50 MW "once suitable components for operating the cable at 33kV have been developed." So like wave and fusion not anytime soon... And I wonder how well the cable risers from the sea floor to the sea surface cope with the constant flexing/stressing, in salt water, at tidal and wave frequencies? I actually don't think our opinions are massively apart, just looking at things from a rather different angle. Quite possibly. You are glass half full, I'm glass half empty. Probably influenced by how much energy renewables can be reasonably expected to provide, how practical it is to realise that energy, how practical it is to move that energy to where it is used and then add in time scales and cost. Trouble is there are lots of stupid ideas out there How about this one? Encircle the globe with a 10 mile wide strip of PV cells (avoids the night problem), but how do you construct that across the oceans, how do you get the power from the daylight side to the night side? Have read "Without Hot Air"? http://www.withouthotair.com/ (*) Would those that have installed or are going to install PV systems done so if the payment for all the electricity generated was set at a 5p/unit premium above their grid buying price? No index link and no guarantee? -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:01:49 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
With which bit? Crap performance of air source heat pumps with air temps just above 0C or contesting "Output input every time" on a cradle to grave basis? Both. We've had low temperatures the last few days and nights and are living in a warm house, with the air source pump only on during the day. Have you measured how much heat it has produced and how much energy it has consumed? With air temps just above freezing the collector ices up, ice is a good insulator, the unit has to regularly defrost the collector. This is what gives them crap performance under such conditions. It'll still churn out the heat but with a poor COP. Any evidence of cradle to grave energy costs? -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:21:32 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
With which bit? Crap performance of air source heat pumps with air temps just above 0C or contesting "Output input every time" on a cradle to grave basis? Both. We've had low temperatures the last few days and nights and are living in a warm house, with the air source pump only on during the day. So? Evidence for an air source heat pump having a good COP with air temps just above 0C. And that you gte more out from the heat pump than you put in ove the cradle to grave measure? Do you actually have one of these units yourself? Not particularly relevant, you have one. What is the COP with say an air temp of 2C and 80% RH? Part of the house has storeage heating, which I hate. I'd like to replace that with something a little more controlable and cheaper. I've been looking at air source heat pumps, but the drop in COP with low air temps is a major drawback when we spend quite significant periods (weeks) of the winter with air temps 5C and high humidty, mist/hill fog. Assuming a COP of 3.5 under ideal conditions droping that to 2.5 means the input energy to get the same output goes up by 40%, either that or you get cold... -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
Solar panels (PV type)
On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 17:40:21 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
So? Evidence for an air source heat pump having a good COP with air temps just above 0C. And that you gte more out from the heat pump than you put in ove the cradle to grave measure? Please tell me how I would measure that - simply and without too much effort on my part. Air to water I'd expect to have some heat metering built in. Though if it's anything like the heat metering built into our solar thermal controller it would be next to useless(*). Otherwise it's probably not possible. The makers information ought to have it but I wouldn't be surprised if the COP at various outside/inside air temperatures was quietly side stepped. I've no idea and am not that interested. The bills from the fuel suppliers are, to my mind, more relevant. Part of the house has storage heating, which I hate. And rightly so. I was involved just over a year ago in replacing six night storage heaters in a small local museum with a 10kW air-to-air heat source pump. As you are so keen on getting the bills down how come they installed air to air? That was excluded from the RHPP (£850 grant payment for air to water) and the RHI. The RHI could be paying them 4.7p/unit produced now (Under the "commercial" Phase 1 part of the RHI) for the next 20 years. Well, if you're right about COP, then that's important to you. But you should ask yourself whether you should be worried about it Electricity is not going to go down in price over the next 5 to 10 years.. If a dozen or so nuke stations get built it might at least stabilise. (*) Takes the panel manifold temperature and the tank bottom temperature and the transfer fluid flow rate. That temperature difference is normally *far* higher than the temperature difference between the flow and return of the transfer fluid loop. It is the latter that really shows how much heat has been transferred from the fluid to the tank. -- Cheers Dave. Nr Garrigill, Cumbria. 421m ASL. |
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