On 1/26/12 4:06 PM, oriel36 wrote:

In the worst possible situation of a type the world hasn't seen
before, the normal response is simply to begin with the known
experiences within a 24 hour period and infer that one 24 hour
rotation of the Earth such as daily temperature fluctuations in tandem
with day turning to night and keep in step way throughout the 4
orbital circuits of the Earth around the Sun.In short there are 1461
rotations enclosed in the period that began Mar 1st 2008 and will end
Feb 29th as the 1461 st rotation.

I can't say what this is,it is not betrayal as there is no known
reason why anyone,astronomer or not,could imagine 1465 rotations in
the 1461 noon cycles in proportion to 4 orbital circuits and yet
almost every single day for a decade I have fought to keep this fact
front and center until somebody with common sense had the wits about
them to understand the consequences.I can talk about fundamental
rights of students, the hacket job done on astronomy by empiricists
attempting to bridge astronomy with experimental sciences,the sheer
mess of the present situation but I cannot account for why people
could knowingly suffer something as awful and an imbalance between
days and rotations as you have it at 1465 rotations for 1461 days.

You have no idea what sacrifices I have made so that no student will
ever have to sit before a teacher and be indoctrinated into what is
essentially a right ascension cult which tries to justify stellar
circumpolar motion without the physical considerations on using an
average 24 hour day in the 365/366 day format.By the grace of God I
will not fail and this is no revenge talk but that goodness in
humanity that none of you can ever extinguish no matter how dominant
you appear to be and be that it may that I stand alone with the three
known facts which are central to all astronomy,I will not permit a
dismal and faith hating bunch to dictate to the wider population and
alternative and ridiculous set of values.


Here are the 3 core principles that do not take a holiday even if men
choose to -

1 - The equatorial Earth turns at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles
per hour and a full 24901 mile circumference in 24 hours

2- The Earth turns 1461 times in 1461 days to the nearest rotation in
proportion to 4 orbital circuits of the Sun

3 The are 365 1/4 rotations enclosed on 1 orbital circuit.

The refinements haven't even begun yet and there is no entity in
existence presently with the motivation to secure those basic facts
let alone refine them.

You won't argue with those facts,that much I know but they are the
foundations on which astronomy is built,either timekeeping or
structural/dynamical astronomy.The people in the late 17th and 18th
century are not to blame,they made a bad mistake but it is our
generation,with all its technology,that cannot support their error nor
the people who promote it.

Gerald lives for his nonsensical replies! Apparently no other
"pleasures" in his life.

The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

On Jan 28, 2:10*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/26/12 4:06 PM, oriel36 wrote:









In the worst possible situation of a type the world hasn't seen
before, the normal response is simply to begin with the known
experiences within a 24 hour period and infer that one 24 hour
rotation of the Earth such as daily temperature fluctuations in tandem
with day turning to night and keep in step way throughout the 4
orbital circuits of the Earth around the Sun.In short there are 1461
rotations enclosed in the period that began Mar 1st 2008 and will end
Feb 29th as the 1461 st rotation.

I can't say what this is,it is not betrayal as there is no known
reason why anyone,astronomer or not,could imagine 1465 rotations in
the 1461 noon cycles in proportion to 4 orbital circuits and yet
almost every single day for a decade I have fought to keep this fact
front and center until somebody with common sense had the wits about
them to understand the consequences.I can talk about fundamental
rights of students, the hacket job done on astronomy by empiricists
attempting to bridge astronomy with experimental sciences,the sheer
mess of the present situation but I cannot account for why people
could knowingly suffer something as awful and an imbalance between
days and rotations as you have it at 1465 rotations for 1461 days.

You have no idea what sacrifices I have made so that no student will
ever have to sit before a teacher and be indoctrinated into what is
essentially a right ascension cult which tries to justify stellar
circumpolar motion without the physical considerations on using an
average 24 hour day in the 365/366 day format.By the grace of God I
will not fail and this is no revenge talk *but that goodness in
humanity that none of you can ever extinguish no matter how dominant
you appear to be and be that it may that I stand alone with the three
known facts which are central to all astronomy,I will not permit a
dismal and faith hating bunch to dictate to the wider population and
alternative and ridiculous set of values.

Here are the 3 core principles that do not take a holiday even if men
choose to -

1 - The equatorial Earth turns at a rate of 15 degrees/1037.5 miles
per hour and a full 24901 mile circumference in 24 hours

2- The Earth turns 1461 times in 1461 days to the nearest rotation in
proportion to 4 orbital circuits of the Sun

3 The are 365 1/4 rotations enclosed on 1 orbital circuit.

The refinements haven't even begun yet and there is no entity in
existence presently with the motivation to secure those basic facts
let alone refine them.

You won't argue with those facts,that much I know but they are the
foundations on which astronomy is built,either timekeeping or
structural/dynamical astronomy.The people in the late 17th and 18th
century are not to blame,they made a bad mistake but it is our
generation,with all its technology,that cannot support their error nor
the people who promote it.

* *Gerald lives for his nonsensical replies! Apparently no other
* *"pleasures" in his life.


The choice facing our generation is simple and it is not much of a
choice,there is no room for a wandering analemma Sun as the only
acceptable observations of wandering motions are the planets
including the two 'wanderers' seen here being overtaken by the Earth -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap031216.html

Want to explain a wandering analemma Sun using the daily and orbital
motions of the Earth,and this is what is attempted in this thread,
then it is not so much a defiance of astronomical principles but a
complete ignorance of them.

You have no sense of the sheer volume of information pouring through
this thread and,for the first time, the main framework for the unit of
timekeeping where the Egyptians used the annual rising of Sirius as a
gauge for the 1461 natural daily cycles that complete 4 annual
circuits with the transfer to 1461 rotations in 4 orbital circuits as
a complicated process but the idea of explaining the daily and orbital
motions of the Earth using stellar circumpolar motion is as dumb as
the wandering analemma Sun.

The ancient astronomers actually tell you how they worked it out hence
the fundamental unit of time is a proportion of 1461 days to 4 annual
cycles so they built on this structure which can be reduced to a
proportion of 365 1/4 days/rotations to 4 years/orbital circuits.

"..on account of the precession of the rising of the Divine Sothis by
one day in the course of 4 years... it shall be, that the year of 360
days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day as feast of
Benevolent Gods [the pharaoh and family] be from this day after every
4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men
shall learn, that what was a little defective in the order as regards
the seasons and the year, as also the opinions which are contained in
the rules of the learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and
improved .." Canopus Decree


* *The earth's orbit is elliptical, as a result sunrise, solar noon and
* *sunset get ahead and behind. The eccentricity of the earth orbit and
* *the obliquity of the ecliptic are the largest factors.
* * *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

The key to it all is shifting the emphasis to the calendar cycle which
begins Mar 1st and ends 4 orbital cycles later on Feb 29th where
genuine astronomers can enjoy the freedom to rework the 1461 days and
rotations into their respective formats and especially the separation
of daily and orbital dynamics in their pure state or as the calendar
convenience that spawns the Ra/Dec framework.

It took them 40 years to deal with the Piltdown Man hoax even though
it interrupted investigations into biological evolution even when the
perpetrator basically cottoned on that his hoax had gone too far.You
have no idea the damage that is being done by what is effectively a
harmless photographic exercise of charting the Sun position at clock
noon using the human convenience of 365/366 day calendar system and
then imagining that a wandering Sun can e explained by way of the
dynamics of the Earth.This is a complete affront to astronomy and it
has gone on long enough.

I have seen enough.
A generation who imagines a wandering analemma Sun can be explained by
the daily and orbital motions of the Earth when they now see that the
wandering motions of the planets are common to both geocentric
astronomers and astronomer beginning with Copernicus is finished
astronomically.They either accept the analemma is a damaging
distraction and a hoax or live with that ignominious junk born of
right ascension reasoning.

I have these chimpanzees attach themselves to my posts but no more,you
are all men and I suggest you act like men for a change and begin
working out why the Sun doesn't wander but how Copernicus resolved the
apparent wandering motions of the planets using modern imaging,common
sense and the original texts of Copernicus,Galileo and Kepler -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

Not one of my astronomical compatriots through history has been
treated this badly and for so long but that reflects on the hatred for
astronomical tradition shown by the wandering Sun crowd for if things
were right,this would have passed quickly from an exercise in
technical and historical forensics to productive work where real
astronomy resides.

On 1/28/12 1:44 PM, oriel36 wrote:
They either accept the analemma is a damaging
distraction and a hoax or live with that ignominious junk born of
right ascension reasoning.

Anthony Ayiomamitis has made these excellent representations
of the analemma written on the sky by observing and photographing
the sky!
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Solar-Analemma.htm

On Jan 28, 8:34*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/28/12 1:44 PM, oriel36 wrote:

They either accept the analemma is a *damaging
distraction and a hoax or live with that ignominious junk born of
right ascension reasoning.

* * Anthony Ayiomamitis has made these excellent representations
* * of the analemma written on the sky by observing and photographing
* * the sky!
* * * http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Solar-Analemma.htm

There is a division between the astronomy that existed before
Flamsteed decided to justify stellar circumpolar using the daily and
orbital dynamics of the Earth and afterwards which is the entity you
subscribe to including a wandering analemma Sun,something which
beggars belief given that the technical allowances for a wandering Sun
is nil whereas the wandering nature of planets is attested back to
antiquity and the main argument which Copernicus used to explain the
orbital motion of the Earth.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060422.html

There is nowhere to go from here,a full recourse to obliterate the
analemma hoax,however unintentional it may be,is now out of the
question as the resolution for retrogrades wold now be classed as a
general principle with the power of contemporary imaging now moving on
to cross referencing planetary details to arrive at common principles
for terrestrial effects but with investigators caught up in a
wandering Sun hoax, a progression from technical forensics to
productive topics is unthinkable in this atmosphere.

You are free to enjoy the analemma as you see it but what you cannot
have are the wandering planets and a wandering Sun in the same
celestial arena .Again I have seen enough of the commonplace mind to
last a lifetime,at least here.

On 1/28/12 3:32 PM, oriel36 wrote:
You are free to enjoy the analemma as you see it but what you cannot
have are the wandering planets and a wandering Sun in the same
celestial arena.

I do enjoy Anthony's excellent analemma photography!
http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Solar-Analemma.htm

Furthermore, I share his work with my college students.

One's perspective can certainly simplify the understanding
of pattern's of planetary motion. Praise be to Copernicus,
Kepler, Galileo and Newton.

On Jan 28, 1:32*pm, oriel36 wrote:

Again I have seen enough of the commonplace mind to
last a lifetime,at least here.

So... you're leaving?

On Jan 28, 2:14*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:

* *One's perspective can certainly simplify the understanding
* *of pattern's of planetary motion. Praise be to Copernicus,
* *Kepler, Galileo and Newton.

http://tinyurl.com/6v64rke

Unfortunately, Gerald's perspective is his reality... and he only has
one perspective.

\Paul A

On Jan 28, 10:14*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 1/28/12 3:32 PM, oriel36 wrote:

You are free to enjoy the analemma as you see it but what you cannot
have are the wandering planets and a wandering Sun in the same
celestial arena.

* *I do enjoy Anthony's excellent analemma photography!
* * *http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Solar-Analemma.htm

* *Furthermore, I share his work with my college students.


Talking yourselves into irrelevance is worse than being wrong.



* *One's perspective can certainly simplify the understanding
* *of pattern's of planetary motion. Praise be to Copernicus,
* *Kepler, Galileo and Newton.

Kepler did model the wandering motions of Mars against the stellar
background along with the resolution which is that they are an
illusion seen by the Earth overtaking the planet -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...retrograde.jpg

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils,leading
the individual planets into their respective orbits,quite bare and
very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars
traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you
see looped towards the center,with one extra, making nine times, while
at the same time the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times "Kepler

There is only room for the wandering planets in the celestial arena so
the wandering analemma Sun is repulsive when compared the insights
and methods of the great astronomers even though you use their names
yet misrepresent their works.The analemma is an Ra/Dec generated
concept so it is the most visible sign of the bigger picture much like
the Piltdown Man skull represents bigger flaws in reasoning yet in
comparison,the analemma and what it represents is many,many magnitudes
greater in damage.

So,what you are all going to talk about with this hoax right at the
center of astronomy is hardly my concern,this is forensics and you can
only go so far with that .

On Jan 25, 4:14*am, Science Fan wrote:
What's the name of the phenomenon that causes the sun to continue to
rise later, even though the winter solstice has passed? *TIA.

How about "diurnal lag". It's fairly descriptive although not very
specific.

Ben